Assange in Sweden: Witness 'F'
STOCKHOLM/LONDON
(Rixstep) — Nine witnesses were interrogated in conjunction with the
preliminary police investigation into the allegations made against Julian
Assange. Some of these interrogations were conducted by telephone and therefore
'conceptual' in nature; others took place on location and were recorded and
thereafter transcribed.
The interrogation of witness 'F' was conducted by Mats Gehlin with Ewa Olofsson as police interrogation witness on 20 September (31 days after the case was filed) starting at 11:20 and concluding at 12:17, immediately following the interrogation of witness 'E'.
This is the witness the Guardian so loved to quote to skew the truth. Compare this with what Nick Davies, Alan Rusbridger, and David Leigh wrote and implied. Then tell them (eg on Twitter) what you think of their style of journalism.
The interrogation of witness 'F' was conducted by Mats Gehlin with Ewa Olofsson as police interrogation witness on 20 September (31 days after the case was filed) starting at 11:20 and concluding at 12:17, immediately following the interrogation of witness 'E'.
This is the witness the Guardian so loved to quote to skew the truth. Compare this with what Nick Davies, Alan Rusbridger, and David Leigh wrote and implied. Then tell them (eg on Twitter) what you think of their style of journalism.
MG: Yes
this is a little bit about your contacts with Julian Assange.
WF: Yup.
MG: To start with I'd like you to tell us how you got to know Julian and when you met him the first time.
WF: I met Julian the first time this spring, the spring of 2010, I don't remember exactly which month but it was in conjunction with his being interviewed by Aftonbladet by the journalist Johannes Wahlström. Ehee Ha and then I found out through Johannes and Aftonbladet that Julian was coming to Sweden and I was asked if I wanted to be in on a meeting.
EO: (Inaudible.)
MG: We'll do this anyway because it's still recording anyway.
WF: Otherwise I have one you can borrow.
EO: No it's something that...
MG: But it's working.
WF: The batteries might be running low.
(Using two dictaphones for safety's sake.)
WF: Yeah.
EO: So.
MG: It can toot all it wants now.
WF: Yes.
MG: So, if you continue with...
WF: With where I was.
MG: Yes.
WF: So Julian had a rather big presentation in Sweden through a big assignment, an interview in Aftonbladet. Uh, that was possibly what got him to decide to travel to Sweden, at that time. Then it turned out he had thoughts about Sweden anyway, in terms of freedom of expression and freedom of the press, in other words the legislation... Uh, in connection with his coming here I was asked if I wanted to be in on a meeting...
(One dictaphone stops working. The interrogation continues with only Olofsson's dictaphone.)
EO: It just died.
MG: We'll keep going with yours.
EO: So.
WF: With Julian and some journalists. And of course I said yes, I as many others was both curious and interested in what that was. Uh so we had a meeting, uh, with him, a number of journalists who had also been asked. What's happening now is that around WikiLeaks there's been a cooperation with journalists. Even newspapers and television corporations are involved. And in Sweden it was some sort of, embryo, it could have become the same thing. Uh, a number of journalists from different places of work but also SVT and Aftonbladet and media organisations too, also involved in these discussions. Uh, so of course it was very interesting.
Then Julian left the country again and came back one more time. And then we had another meeting, continued the discussion. If we're going to do this, we talked about, what should we do and how should we do it and what will we do. Uh, I remember it as, no decisions were made, no organisations were formed... In other words nothing formal but there were like discussions. Uh but I remember approximately that all the Swedish journalists thought the same thing, that we look at these materials which are worth gold for a journalist of course, that we want the papers on the table. Here there was like the opportunity to get, literally, the papers on the table. For a lot of things, not just the known ones. Uh, and that we'd do it as journalists, make an assessment of public interest. And from that perspective, uh, publish, possibly publish something then. That's to day, not do as WikiLeaks normally do, publish everything. But we as a more, yeah a Swedish normal publicity angle on it. And we were mostly in agreement on that.
Uh, and then nothing more happened, then Julian left the country again. Uh and so this happened Der Spiegel, New York Times, Guardian joint venture. Uh, another venture's been planned, I know, where I'm not at all involved but... Uh but approximately the same media are sitting and looking at materials. And we started talking about, uh, if we could have a similar project in Sweden with other materials. And where Aftonbladet, SVT, and a few, yeah other journalists were mentioned. It never happened, in other words any documents to look at, to dig into, researching has never manifested itself, uh, yet. But it's still in the air. After this storm has subsided so maybe it'll resume, maybe not. Uh, so on three occasions when Julian was in Sweden I've met him. And discussed these things, with a lot of others.
MG: The first time was in the spring?
WF: Yes, in the spring.
MG: Yeah, OK.
WF: And the second time was also before the summer.
MG: Yes. And this third time this is when he gives the lecture or?
WF: Precisely, in connection with the invitation from the brotherhood movement. Uh, and then in conjunction with this Anna Ardin who've I not met rings me then but I got a good contact with her rather quickly. Uh, because there was an enormous media interest and she wondered if she could have me take care of the media coordination, at any rate a lot of media so that... So when they rang her which is a part and inviting organisation so she bounced them most often onto me.
MG: OK.
WF: Uh so suddenly it became... And I said, I've got more media experience than she does. Know a lot of these journalists who are ringing. So I said yes, I can do that without having any clue what enormous time it'd take. And suddenly a lot of people believe I'm some sort of media coordinator for WikiLeaks but that's not the way it was.
MG: No.
WF: I only helped out, helped Anna and the brotherhood run this up until the conference. (Laughs.)
MG: Hmmm.
EO: Are you an active member of the brotherhood...
WF: No.
EO: Movement? No.
WF: No, no not at all.
MG: But you said Anna contacted you?
WF: Yes.
MG: Yes.
WF: Uh, I'd had contact with Peter Weiderud. I'd known him for years, or known, run into each other in international situations. Mostly I'm a foreign correspondent.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Peter Weiderud at the brotherhood, who's chairman of the brotherhood is also very involved internationally so we've met sometimes in the parliament or yeah like that. Uh, but when this gig was to take place so Anna was given the assignment of being press secretary and then, then she rang me and asked, can you, can I shift a bit of media work to you. (Laughs.) I told her she could do that. And then a rather big circus started around this interest before the seminar. Uh, and then a new circus started a week later when Anna and the other women went to you. And then, then my telephone number was already on record with the world media so it was almost a storm.
MG: OK.
WF: Uh...
MG: Yes. During, if we say like this, when it all starts, these allegations...
WF: Hmmm.
MG: What thoughts, if we say like this, what reaction did you get from Julian then? Was it him, you have contact with him as I understand it?
WF: Yeah, I have, there's a background story beforehand in other words... I had daily contact with Anna and Julian, in connection with the seminar. And Anna and I both had contact several times a day most often. Uh of course, because the media, that was a media turbo so we had a lot of contact.
And before this all starts Anna rings me and says like this, what I said before isn't true, we've actually had sex, Julian and me. Previously she said that they hadn't had it in other words spontaneously without anybody asking so she's joked about Julian living in her flat and sleeping in her bed but we haven't had sex. Of course he tried, she says but she's rebuffed him. Yeah no comments but we keep on joking.
But so the phone rings one day, I think it was Thursday then. Uh and I can hear in her voice that she, that it's something serious. So she says, it's not true what I said, we have too had sex. Aha, I say, I'm a little surprised she rings me and tells me this. Uh and then, and then she goes on to tell me that the other woman, Sofia has rung her and told her Julian was there and had sex with her. Both times it was consensual. And now I'm speaking as Anna, and this is the only version I have actually. Uh and we talked a lot, and I'm telling you all this to get back to your question...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, because there's a background story. And then she tells me that Julian and Sofia traveled to Enköping and had consensual sex or however you say that, uh, up until the morning and then Anna says and then Sofia tells me Julian continues having sex with her in the morning without protection, without a condom. And she doesn't want that and she protests, uh, but Julian continues and completes the sex without protection despite Sofia's protests, says Anna. Uh, OK I say, I'm speechless of course from suddenly getting this call. And so I have to say that he, we had sex at an early stage at my place too and right in the middle, in an ongoing act or whatever he broke the condom, she says. She doesn't say it, takes it off or she says... For I get stuck with, breaking it, it's such a strange... Either you have a condom or you don't, or so one takes, yeah...
So therefore I remember exactly this description and she says to me that suddenly he breaks it, the condom, and continues against my wishes. Uh, and I was again unbelievably stupefied and couldn't comment, I was just shocked a bit of course about this happening.
So that's the background story and I believe, I think Anna is very, very credible. Or at least I've thought so all along. Uh, so I don't dismiss it but contact Julian and confront him with this right away. Something like what the fuck is going on? Um, and his reaction is shock, he doesn't understand anything, of course he has a contrary story. He says Sofia didn't protest at all, they were just having fun. Uh he, he, I really try to pressure him, did you take the condom off, did you break the condom, Uh, he doesn't even understand the question. So it's two separate, and I have no conclusions to draw from this...
MG: No.
WF: At all. But that's the background story, and therefore I know, uh, what's coming so to speak. Because then Anna says Sofia's asked me to go to the police, follow along with her and I've decided I'm going to follow along and support her through this. But we're not going to file charges against Julian, we just want to go there and tell our stories. And so I wonder, can you tell a story without it becoming a complaint... Yeah, technicalities like that but I'm not good at them, but that's what she says.
And so she goes there and follows along with Sofia. And we ring a few times back and forth, we send SMS messages a bit about this. And I ring as well and contact Julian a few times. Uh, they want Julian to test himself for HIV, uh, otherwise they're going to file a complaint. That's how they express it. Uh, they don't want to speak with Julian themselves. But Julian's talking to Sofia he says and he thinks things are blown out of proportion. But I tell Julian that, the girls want you to test yourself and if you do it, they won't press charges but if you don't, they'll press charges. So I just conveyed that, I was the messenger. I didn't have any of my own, uh, and that's the way it is.
And then Anna rings again and says now we've been with the police and Sofia told her story and, yeah because I sat there so I added a comment of my own. This is very 'word for word' and as I remember her telling me. Uh, aha I say, and what was that comment. Yeah that comment was that I think Sofia is telling the truth because I experienced something similar Anna says then. And then she told me that bit about the condom then, so that's why I think it's true. And I don't know anything about police technicalities but then Anna says, because we suddenly were two women who had a statement about, about the same man so it became a crime against the state and so it became a complaint even though we didn't file a complaint. And, yeah so it became a complaint. And I therefore already knew Julian's reaction, and now we're up to your question.
MG: Yes yes.
WF: Uh, that he was in shock and didn't understand anything. That was his first, uh... And, so that then there were two versions, first there was no sex uh, then there was sex but nothing had happened that Anna didn't want to happen. Uh, and then the third version now is that it's rape even. So I have, from my point of view I have seen three versions of the same incident.
MG: If we say, you've then, Julian has been here earlier. Have you, have you any insight or knowledge of his activities with women?
WF: Uh, yeah insight, we've never spoken privately and we've never associated privately.
MG: No.
WF: So precisely what he's done and with who I don't know, but there is a common perception...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Of course and it's that he attracts a lot of women. In other words it's so remarkable. And it's a little bit, yeah it's a bit of a rock star phenomenon so to speak.
MG: OK.
WF: The world's most famous man...
MG: Yes.
WF: In the eyes of some people, in other words during a certain period he was that. Unbelievably intelligent, that's attractive and he challenges, in other words the Pentagon and so... That impresses a lot of people and I've seen very many women, I can say the overwhelming majority of women who've come into contact with him have fallen head over heels.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, they're totally enchanted. Uh, really. And I've been able to draw the conclusion that he's been able to take advantage of this, we can put it like that. But precisely with who, how many and what, that I don't know.
MG: No. He, you get, in other words his, his reaction if one says...
WF: Hmmm.
MG: What does he feel about this attention from the girls?
WF: I think he feels positively about it actually.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: One can, I understand the question but I think that he thinks it's positive and Anna's comments when she actually rings me and says, it wasn't true, what I said before, we've had sex.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And then she adds that, right on this theme as I say, uh, I was fucking proud, got the world's coolest guy in my bed and living in my flat.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, yeah and it's on that theme and that was why, to your question now so it's, so I believe Julian thinks this attention is positive, very positive.
MG: Hmmm. The events surrounding Julian living with Anna...
WF: Yes.
MG: Do you know about that?
WF: Yes. I was going to say, I'm the one who knows about that. Because that was when, for Julian's arrival that Anna rings me for the first time. And it's not a media matter but the fact that we've never spoken but, hi I'm Anna Ardin I have, so, I'm involved with, planning this seminar. I'll be on the election campaign trail so my flat will be empty, so Julian's welcome to live there she says, you can tell him that. Uh, and in addition the brotherhood would earn, or save hotel costs. And Julian would rather live in a flat than in a hotel so I forwarded the message and he jumped on it and so I brought the two of them together, easy as that.
So that, and then it was the plan Julian would stay until Friday I think. The seminar would be on Saturday, Anna'd come home on Saturday I think it was originally. But then she comes back on Friday instead. So, and it's a little bit like this, wow how is this going to work, where's Julian going to spend the night and like that. Uh, but what I understand then, it's that they go out and eat, then they go home, uh, and they decide that Julian can stay in her bed. So that was the easy part, that Anna clearly understands, my flat is empty, it can be used. And she offers it to Julian, then he lives there until, one more week.
MG: Yes. Do you have any contact with Julian this week then?
WF: Yes.
MG: After the seminar so to speak.
WF: Yes. Yes firstly so, after the seminar we go, then it's a Saturday. They met on a Friday and the seminar was on Saturday. So we go eat lunch, this is something I believe has been in the media. It's a little gang that lingers, when all the journalists have dropped out so there's only a few left. And there's also a woman standing there that I've seen during the seminar, whom I don't know and I don't know who she is. So polite as I am I say hello to her and ask, are you also a brotherhooder like that. No not at all she says, uh, I just asked if I could help out. Uh, and then I understand that it's one of those, you can call them groupies or stalkers or those who are attracted by his starshine.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But, yeah there's nothing more with that and she follows along and eats lunch with us.
MG: Who sees to it she follows along to eat lunch?
WF: Yeah, good question, but it's like this, brotherhood says like this, lunch is on us, thanks for the seminar and now we'll go and sit down and eat lunch and she's sitting there.
MG: So you don't even know if she's been invited?
WF: No in other words she says like this, I rang Anna and asked if I could help out. So there was some sort of acceptance from Anna that she was there, got to join the gang. What she helped out with, I don't know but there was an acceptance that she was with us.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh precisely, so she not only pushed her way in but she also... Then, I'm the one who finishes lunch and leaves first for I have somewhere else to go. But before that Peter Weiderud says, because it's been in the media, that it's crayfish season and Julian from outside the country is here, it's crayfish season, uh, so he should, he should get to try Swedish crayfish. And so Anna starts ringing, this is a Saturday, after the seminar, so Anna rings some friends and says yep of course we're going to organise a crayfish party for Julian. And so she rings and delegates assignments, can you buy this and can you buy that. That's about the last thing I hear before I leave the restaurant and thank them and go on.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And then it's, uh, a crayfish party in the evening, around 19:00 then.
MG: How were you invited, were you invited already at lunch...
WF: Yes precisely, it's then, then I was invited. And it's, it's not a big party, it's a smaller party, um... Amongst others it's two people from the Pirate Party who come that Anna's contacted. For the idea was Julian was to start living with them instead. Uh, so that's why they come so they can meet, be introduced. And then a few friends of Anna's too as well, uh, yeah.
MG: If we back up a bit to the lunch and that bit about Sofia who tags along.
WF: Hmmm.
MG: What did you think of Sofia's behaviour at the lunch restaurant?
WF: Uh I found her spec... As, yeah my best expression for this is 'special'. Uh, she said in essence nothing at all I don't think. Uh, she said that, precisely this bit that I rang Anna and asked if I could help out and then she said at one point that she worked at the natural history museum. That was what I heard her say, and... So I didn't bother thinking much about her but, if you ask then yes, as a special person.
MG: Did she speak with Julian at the lunch?
WF: Yeah they sat next to each other, uh, and they said something to each other and did something with each other but there I have no details.
MG: No.
WF: Uh, actually. Uh, the only thing one remembers, there's a person who fancies Julian.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And as stated, Julian finds that positive. That's the impression after that I don't delve into people's private lives like that... But, but, yeah apropos that there's another detail too, that I thought of. That was, we were talking, I talked with Anna all the time.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And she jokes about Julian, she says he's a special bloke. Suddenly he's just gone in the middle of the night and there he is sitting in the bathroom with his computer and... Uh, she's joking rather wildly in a fun way about that. And, and we, sometimes so, tell similar stories. But at the crayfish party uh, so she's sitting next to Julian and then she says, and so she brings it up, where did you go off to last night she says. Uh, in other words, and I have no recollection they had any relationship at all. I really believe that Anna, that's a strong woman, like that so that... Uh, but he catches on and he looks at her. Because I'm sitting right next to them. And, I woke up and you were gone from my bed and I felt like you'd dumped me she said. And precisely that word got me to jump. Uh, why did she feel dumped if she hadn't, yeah... Uh, and I noticed afterwards now that I, that word came back that, that she...
MG: But was that the night before the seminar in other words?
WF: No, it was after the seminar. Yeah yeah, right, the Friday night towards Saturday.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: That was when Julian was supposed to move but instead they went out and ate dinner, came back again, decided he'd stay on. And so they shared the bed. And then she told me with a laugh how he, weird guy who disappears and sits in the bathroom with his computer. But towards him there was another sentiment, that she felt dumped. And that's what I reacted to, because you don't do that if you don't have a relationship or like that what. And what I knew they had no relationship, so that, wow she feels dumped, yeah... Uh, that was during the crayfish party and so they sat and talked quietly about it for a while then, because it...
Right and then she joked about Julian also disappearing with a 'random girl' according to the media. Because the ones who rang her uh, they asked for Julian and so, no but he disappeared with a 'random girl' and I didn't understand what she was getting at. And she meant after the lunch, which we've just talked about, Julian and Sofia went off to amongst other things the museum and the cinema and like that. But he came back for the crayfish party.
MG: During the crayfish party, is there anything more that happens that you pick up on during the crayfish party?
WF: Well, the only possibly relevant... I can say I don't participate very much, I eat mostly, I love crayfish. (Laughs.) So I devote a lot of time to eating. But, uh, I know that they're talking about where Julian is going to sleep. Should he go back with this couple as planned. There's another one of Anna's friends, uh, and there's Anna. Uh, but I manage to understand it's already decided at the table Julian's going to stay with Anna again that night. Uh, without being a part of the discussion I understand that's how it's going to be, so that... Again so I'm one of the ones who left the earliest. And the others are still sitting there and...
MG: Si...
WF: And then he gets up, then he goes off and Anna leaves and sleeps there, what I heard anyway.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: I didn't see it. Maybe he did it in secret or how you want to put it, but it's nothing that I like saw him do.
MG: No.
WF: The classic, uh, yeah, man chases woman, in other words something like that...
MG: No.
WF: No I, I remember that later he, and he wanted to keep seeing Anna. Because he said, no but I think it's best if I stay here afterwards. It's easiest, he found a formal reason like that what. Instead of moving luggage and yeah... So. So that was my impression. But I wasn't paying a lot of attention to those people. I, I know that I sat and ate more than what the others did. (Laughs.). Yeah.
MG: And then if we put it like this, Sofia, have you had any contact with Sofia, have you met Sofia other than at the lunch?
WF: No. That time was the last, time I...
MG: And...
WF: I haven't spoken with her, I haven't seen her.
MG: Did you beforehand, have any contact with Sofia beforehand?
WF: No. That was at the seminar there. I saw someone at the seminar who looked right special. In other words I noticed and but... Everybody, everybody seemed to have a role there. There were journalists, there were technicians, and there were like organisers. And she was very obvious that she didn't have a role. So I sat and thought but... One thinks... What can that be, can it be a member of the Pirate Party, can it be, yeah you know like that. And suddenly she was just standing there next to Julian like this, and yeah. That's why I introduced myself and then I understood OK it's one of, in the group of admirers so to speak.
MG: Then we return to, to this, a bit, that this bit about her living, about Julian living with Anna.
WF: Yes.
MG: And then, was it decided how long he would stay with Anna?
WF: No not what I know but he was actually to have moved on Friday as I said, was what, was what had been decided. And then he stays on and then I never heard that there was another limit. I haven't heard it. If they've talked about this together... But I don't think so because, what you might want to arrive at is that gradually during that week, towards Wednesday and after that I think, so Anna says, I want him to move she tells me. Yeah but then tell him I tell her. And then she says it, yeah but I've told him she says but he doesn't want to move. And then I confronted him with that.
EO: Confronted Julian?
WF: Confronted Julian, the thing about moving, Anna says she wants you to move, she tells he she's asked you. And again he's surprised and says she hasn't said a word she says, he says.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And again I can... In other words I have...
MG: Yeah.
WF: I get two, it's like stereo speakers, the one channel says one thing and the other says another thing. But never has there been mention of a time limit but a certain day no now I want you to move.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: She tells me. And I convey this to Julian, that's the situation. And it's first on Friday I believe, that he moves.
MG: Hmmm. Where does he move to?
WF: Good question. I don't know. I think you should ask Johann, maybe you have. Uh, I have not been involved in the arrangements for his accommodations. Not at any point. Uh, actually, and I have not been visiting him uh, even, where he moved to for example then. But my recollection is that it wasn't in Stock... That the first stop was outside Stockholm somewhere. Uh, and now I know he's in Stockholm again but haven't been in the, uh, the place he lives now. Or...
MG: No. Do you know, did anyone, did you hear Anna comment on Sofia or that in other words, did she bring up Sofia before this thing with the HIV tests and stuff like that? Did she mention Sofia at all?
WF: No the only thing, the only thing I heard that was what I said right now that she called her a 'random girl'.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, with, with a shrug of her shoulders or she like tried to joke about Julian disappearing with...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: A 'random girl'. I didn't hear anything else.
MG: OK.
WF: Uh, you should maybe ask her girlfriends how she...
MG: Yes.
WF: Those closest to her. No so it was rather apparent at the time that she gave the impression for me, in other words Anna held a style and a line with me that was pleasant, credible, straight, fresh in some way. But then what happened, I understood later that a lot of things had happened. That the impression wasn't correct...
MG: No.
WF: Uh, corresponded with reality.
DL: No.
WF: So, hmmm.
MG: How, and then when this comes out... In other words when she rings and tells you this...
WF: Hmmm.
MG: About things having happened with Sofia.
WF: Yes.
MG: And that you, even then, she tells you what was true and like that.
WF: Yeah.
MG: What do you think about her when she tells you what she claims has happened?
WF: I find it, uh... I was, partly I was of course flabbergasted that it's a completely different impression all of a sudden.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, but then I think that, that I think she's credible. And a bit like this, a woman who is in trouble you want to believe, in some way like that OK, it's like...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, yeah so that was my feel, direct feeling.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And yeah, but at the same time when, have, I got this thought, how could they have sex, consensual as she described it, so then something happens which she says is an assault, how could she gleefully arrange crayfish parties, let him go on living there, share her bed with him, and so forth. So I felt that here, here is something here that doesn't add up. So I had both the feeling of her as a credible person but that something nevertheless didn't add up in her story.
MG: No.
WF: But I decided not to dig into it, I won't dig into it, you get to do that right? (Laughs.)
MG: Yeah! (Laughs.)
WF: So that it's those two impressions I have in parallel, a credible girl, a strong girl who knows what she wants but something doesn't add up. And it's magnified a bit because I now have three versions of what happened.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, and Julian still says the same thing, I don't understand anything.
MG: No.
WF: They liked this a lot and they really wanted me, yeah. Uh, so that yeah...
EO: Can I get a question in here?
MG: Of course.
EO: When you speak, when you spoke with Anna...
WF: Hmmm.
EO: And she says she's been the victim of a sexual assault. Do you, do you get the feeling of what you thought she was subjected to actually, or Sofia?
WF: Yeah, uh...
MG: Based on Anna's story.
WF: Yes, I understand. Based on Anna's story, when she rings me and says we had sex and this happened so she didn't at all imply she's been the victim of sexual assault. In other words she doesn't even want to go to the police. But, she expresses it like I want, I'll go along with, I promised Sofia I'd go along with her for support. Not that she had any business with the police herself. And so my impression is that she didn't experience anything serious but was mostly angry. As in don't fucking break the condoms but not that it was an assault. Uh, this is my impression because she doesn't go to the police for her own sake.
Then she rings back and says that, as stated what I said then that because she supported Sofia's story with that comment so the case turned out as she said, expressed it, stronger. She said precisely that.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: But it wasn't her case. Then if she went to you and presented her own case strongly, I don't know, but to me because that was the question.
EO: Yes, yes absolutely.
WF: So she trivialised it a lot as an unpleasant thing or something she got pissed about. Uh, and no plans to file a complaint or pursue it any further.
MG: But this is then before you, this is before it... I feel it's like...
WF: This is on Thursday, uh...
MG: And when she goes to the police, do you know?
WF: Yeah, Friday, uh, I think she goes to the police. And on Saturday I think, uh, the arrest, Julian's arrested in absentia on Saturday. So that, yeah Friday afternoon Anna rings me rather often or we ring each other, a real lot, a real lot of times that Friday. And now, she says, now Sofia's with the police. Now I've been with the police and now it's HIV tests again and... So on this Friday there's a lot of traffic, uh... But she gives me the impression she's going there to say this. Uh, and she's a supportive friend for Sofia. Precisely...
MG: What she...
WF: Yeah?
MG: Says, what do you know?
WF: Yeah, I know it rather precisely like that. Or believe her straight away.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: For when this gets out I know that I've spoken with, I get a call from Aftonbladet. And I decided I didn't want to speak to the media. I don't want to get pulled into this story. It's not my story so to speak.
MG: No.
WF: Uh, I haven't been in on these... And like that, so that... Uh but I know I tell Aftonbladet right away that I thought, what I told you, that Anna seems a credible girl. I remember I told Aftonbladet that.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But then there's still those, things that don't add up in the story.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But she, yeah...
MG: Have you ever talked with Julian about, yeah, women? Have you ever talked with him, in other words...
WF: Yeah, I understand the question, yeah.
MG: This about how they, how he gets swarmed all the time.
WF: Yeah, yeah.
MG: And have you had, yeah shall we say ethical conversations with him?
WF: Yes.
MG: You have?
WF: Yes, I have.
MG: Yes.
WF: Uh, because there's such an astonishing onslaught of women. In other words it takes seconds, in other words it's obvious... And when it's like that so uh, so I think one has to um, keep things under control. For different reasons, in other words partly there's an ethical, moral way then so to speak but, but uh, I can't actually get into that for I don't know what he's done and not done so to speak what.
MG: No.
WF: It's like take care of... It was like this, if it's going to be like this so one must, a, take care of it really, really well. Take care of it so no girls, yeah... But the other thing we spoke about and got caught up in with our discussions that is more the security angle. Uh, that he's given the impression of himself, which I think is partly accurate at any rate, of being a hunted man. He's not really all too popular in the US. According to reliable sources that I've read in many places so over one hundred people, who they are in the Pentagon who are trying to crack his codes, yeah... There's a hunt around, uh, and above all he's sitting on materials that can hurt, that they in the US think can hurt them.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, but not just the US. Iceland was the same and there are other countries.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, so, so they want, in other words it's an intelligence source that's unparalleled. That's why it's journalistically interesting in other words to see the papers on the table. So it's not difficult to draw the conclusion that there are a lot of people who want to stop. Then I don't think there's anyone who wants to attack him physically, but they can do other kinds of things.
And even if it's conspiratorial so there are a lot of of stories through history where they send out a girl in a short skirt. Uh, it wasn't so long ago in Russia, uh, you who are in that business know more about that than me. (Laughs.) Uh, editor in chief and journalists and it was only a few months ago, she filmed and taped it all. Uh, and we, we talked about that. And we also talked about uh, Vanunu the Israeli scientist who exposed nuclear weapons in Israel. That was the same thing, they sent a girl to his hotel room so it was a done deal. Then they could smuggle him back to Israel and so forth.
So we talked about there being two sides to it, partly take care of things neatly with the girls. But, but he starts sailing up as a person who can qualify, become the victim for different... Uh, yeah we talked about that, in those terms.
MG: Yeah and what does he say?
WF: Yeah, I only remember him saying that he understands.
MG: Yes.
WF: Uh, and yes that's the way it is but I also get the impression, don't remember the exact words, but my impression is still that he thinks he's in control. That he, because he understands it so he thinks about it and...
MG: Yeah.
WF: The girls he meets are the ones he's learned to trust or not trust, is something...
MG: But got... From your, yeah if one then, conspiratorial conversation you had with him.
WF: Hmmm.
MG: Do you feel, is there any reason to think in those terms in this case?
WF: I don't think so. Uh in other words no, if one now, one can think in different ways. That is if one should now think Pentagon and CIA and those types...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: No I don't think so, I don't think that at all, no such conflict.
MG: Has Julian suggested it's something like that?
WF: No he hasn't. He, he's mentioned that it's a smear campaign. But he, he doesn't know where it's coming from. Or he can only corroborate the entire world media.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Assange plus rape gets several million hits on the net. So it's a gigantic smear campaign he says but... No I, I don't think he thinks it's the CIA behind it.
MG: Yeah or...
WF: Or, this bit... No, not in this case. But, but he's also said that he has, because he has leaks he's also had, uh, what's it called, information from an intelligence service that he has to be careful for they have seen indications that there are such plans underway.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But not that this would be the plan, but in general. Uh, no so I can say that, here there's enough, yeah... Then there are always things you don't know about and like that but, but... If you only ask me like that, so no I don't think it's any big, I think it's more private, personal.
MG: Yes. You said that you'd confronted Julian as well in conjunction with, with your getting this from Anna.
WF: That's right.
MG: Did he say anything about what had happened? That is did he way that no, no but I don't understand anything...
WF: Yes.
MG: But...
WF: No.
MG: Did he elaborate by telling you what had happened?
WF: Yes a bit, that is it wasn't a lot but it was just to, I don't understand what you're talking about because, yeah we had sex precisely as usual.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: She, and I said as well like this that, Anna said that Sofia protested, clearly and loudly that, no don't go on.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And then he became, he became upset several times. I've brought that up several times. And then he gets like upset, he absolutely didn't do that he says emphatically, or she didn't do that. And so he says as well that it's a pure, pure, pure, pure lie.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And, and then he says only that, he had ordinary sex. And what leaked out to the media that we joked about what we'd name the baby and like that.
MG: Yeah.
WF: So that's well, more than that he didn't say but that we had sex and continued even though...
MG: Did he say whether he had a condom or not?
WF: On that occasion with Sofia, no condom.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, on the other occasion, (inaudible) why the condom broke. And then, then he said no, he hadn't broken it. That is he meant that we continued as usual.
MG: But did you...
EO: With or without a condom?
WF: As I understood it, with a condom. In other words it was protected sex on that occasion.
MG: Yes.
WF: Consensual protected sex and so he didn't at all break... That's his version, to me.
MG: How, what do you know about Julian privately, in other words do you have any way to know what his life is like purely... Is he married, does he have children?
WF: I know very little, I know some things that is but very, very little. Most of it comes from other newspaper articles.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: There are some people who've now tried to dig into his background. Uh, but I know very very, very little but I know that he, he has, he isn't married. And he has, I think at least four children I think. He doesn't talk much about his private life. Which is fine by me, I don't need to talk about things like that. That's not our role but... And to my knowledge he has no residence, that is he has no permanent address but circulates around.
MG: Hmmm. Have you, has he ever expressed a desire to have more children?
WF: Uh not with me, that is we're talking about... He's not a person who talks about his private life.
MG: No.
WF: He's very... Uh, and as I said that's fine by me, I don't need...
MG: Yup.
WF: Talk about it, so that no we haven't discussed that.
MG: No. Yes, Ewa?
EO: I see a few things here. Uh, yeah, had, had Julian anyone, did he talk about his future life like, did he want to establish himself here in Sweden or?
WF: Yeah right, hmmm.
EO: What were his thoughts?
WF: His idea as he expressed it to me or to others at any rate was to establish himself in Sweden. Apply for a work permit and a residence permit, which he's done.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: That is he's sent in the paperwork I know that. Uh and then go on to establish, uh, a publication in Sweden. Uh, and to do that get a publisher licence then, then be an official publisher. And thereby Sweden would be some sort of base for his life and activities. Uh, but no more details about how he'd live, I mean like that but this was a purely professional thought for the future. Work and residence permits, publisher licence, uh start a publication and Sweden would be some sort of main base for that activity. And that shows a direction forward in the future that is how he thinks. He yeah, his connections with Sweden would be strengthened and be more permanent and more... And that's a clear impression I have.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: And, yes it's in that direction, that is he reckons on working to achieve that.
EO: Hmmm. Yes, precisely. I thought, do you still have contact with Anna?
WF: No. We had a little, I'll look when the last, that is right in the turbo we had contact a while afterwards. And then it was more and more seldom. I rang a few times, she didn't answer. And that was after Claes Borgström got in the picture. And my conclusion I think, because we had a good relationship. In one of the last, her last SMS message so she writes that we trust each other, right, so... So my conclusion is that she's worried that I'm going to speak with the media or above all else Aftonbladet, because I have a lot of contact with Aftonbladet. And that therefore she reduces our communication so there are no leaks. I can imagine the solicitor says that, don't talk with any journalists even if they're friends. I'd namely say that. So that the last time she didn't answer, instead it's been some SMS messages and then... Yeah since a bit more than a week or more she hasn't even sent an SMS message.
EO: Hmmm. And your contact with Julian these days?
WF: I haven't seen him in ten days or something like that, or met him. But we've spoken, yeah maybe four, three, four days ago. Uh, but it's actually, I want to say regularly, but irregularly, regularly. It's now and again like that.
EO: And because he knows, yeah because you've followed along, do you talk about his case very much, this ongoing preliminary investigation, does he touch on this, does he ask you things? Do you have a dialog...
WF: Yes we do. But it's not so much dialog as it is more that he expresses his thoughts for example that nothing will happen before the elections. In other words an election tactic suddenly so to speak OK, that should it, if the case should go the one way or the other it'd hurt a party in the case that's on a parliamentary ballot, for example.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, I think he thinks about it a lot. And we don't talk very often, but the times we talk it comes up, this case comes up. He feels it clearly, yes he expresses (inaudible) discontent, he feels unjustly treated. For example a tangible thing that usually comes up, there was a murder case that was in the newspapers, Nancy in Malmö, a young girl who got chopped to death with a bottle I think. The individual is brought in, sentenced to eight years prison. The photo of the murderer is mosaic but the photo of Julian who is only a suspect is not mosaic. Uh, so that he feels there's something going on that's not right in general, and he comments on this often. But we've sat like this and like long, it's mostly phone conversations that are... Yeah, and so forth in that way so to speak.
MG: Who in Sweden does he have the best contact with, Julian? Who would you say is the one he here in Sweden trusts the most?
WF: Yeah it's a bit here and there but if I were to name one person I'd probably say Johannes Wahlström. I think they made good contact in the US when Johannes interviewed Julian.
MG: Do you have any contact, how has your contact with Johannes looked from...
WF: The beginning of time?
MG: Yeah or more correctly, no but if we say after the bomb was dropped.
WF: Yeah in principle Johannes has been out of the country all this time. Now I don't know if we've spoken by phone once or twice and a few SMS messages. That is it's been very little, low frequency contact.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: That is this is nothing we've ripped up and people have been running to meetings, sat and planned. But this is something that goes on as it goes on. And the last SMS message from Johannes was well, yeah yesterday. And I didn't reply, I didn't have the energy... He can come to my place and have a look himself. (Laughs.) So it's on that level so to speak.
MG: Yeah.
WF: There are no, like, plans, there are no fractions like that but...
MG: And before this? So did you know him a long time before this or?
WF: No. I've met him, um, once in Jerusalem on a common, a lot of journalists gathered. So that's why I knew who he was. Then he interviewed me once about the middle east for some magazine. Uh and that was the first time I met him and spoke with him. The third time I met him, the first time with Julian in principle, Assange.
MG: And where was this?
WF: I think, uh... Let me think, I might be missing something here. Yes, I met him, I wrote, also. So if you write about the middle east you'll often get flak.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: A lot more. So suddenly I can say that, yeah I know him.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But that's only recently that, that we've come that far.
JA: Yes.
EO: Hmmm. I have no further questions.
MG: Anything you think we should have asked that you want to get across?
WF: I think I've covered everything. No but there's this, it feels like, uh, there are so many versions of the same events.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: I think about that.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And some people, Anna who's sitting and feeling dumped next to Julian. That too sticks in my... Why felt that.
EO: One thing, when this phone call comes, on Thursday, when Anna...
WF: Yes.
EO: And then you confronted Julian.
WF: Yes.
EO: Did it come out that he'd had sex with both Sofia and Anna or were you completely focused on Sofia?
WF: No in other words, when Anna rings, that is I think that's Thursday then.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: Up to then she's joked about, he hasn't got me between the sheets, and like that OK.
EO: Hmmm, hmmm.
WF: Uh, but Thursday then, that's when she says that, I've also had sex with Julian...
EO: Hmmm...
WF: What I told you before isn't true, so that's when it comes out that they've had sex.
EO: Hmmm...
WF: And then the reason she says that, it's because Sofia rings her and tells her about their night...
EO: Hmmm.
WF: So that within a few minutes I understand, everyone understands I almost said, so it came out that they'd both had sex with Julian. But to add: consensual sex.
EO: But then, you confront Julian with this.
WF: Yes.
EO: Is it also, do you also talk about both...
WF: Yes.
EO: Girls?
WF: I told you explicitly what, precisely what Anna told me, I say that straight out.
EO: Yes.
WF: This broken condom and, why did you continue when Sofia said no, protested.
EO: Hmmm.
MG: Yeah then we come in inadvertently in this that, do you know if Julian has had any contact with the girls?
WF: No...
MG: After...
WF: Not after the complaint but that Friday, uh, when the girls actually go to the police (inaudible) I think it was a Friday. Before that Anna rings me frequently. Uh, and above all that we want him to test himself so then we won't file a complaint she says. OK I say, I'll ring Julian and tell him that. And so I do. And so I ring Anna and Anna rings me.
And then I ring Julian again and then he says, no but now I've had a long conversation with Sofia. He says on Friday. And she, (inaudible) no worries, that's to say she's not going to the police and that was, they were fully in agreement and... I say, is it really true I say because Anna, when I spoke with Anna right now I got a completely different impression, they're on their way to the police (inaudible). No he says, she, we were in complete agreement, it was very friendly, very nice.
And what he comes back to several times, and it's that I've spoken with her on Friday and she said like this. But after that I don't know if they've had any contact. But I don't think they've had any contact.
MG: Good.
EO: Hmmm. No...
MG: Then we'll end the interrogation at 12:17.
WF: Yup.
MG: To start with I'd like you to tell us how you got to know Julian and when you met him the first time.
WF: I met Julian the first time this spring, the spring of 2010, I don't remember exactly which month but it was in conjunction with his being interviewed by Aftonbladet by the journalist Johannes Wahlström. Ehee Ha and then I found out through Johannes and Aftonbladet that Julian was coming to Sweden and I was asked if I wanted to be in on a meeting.
EO: (Inaudible.)
MG: We'll do this anyway because it's still recording anyway.
WF: Otherwise I have one you can borrow.
EO: No it's something that...
MG: But it's working.
WF: The batteries might be running low.
(Using two dictaphones for safety's sake.)
WF: Yeah.
EO: So.
MG: It can toot all it wants now.
WF: Yes.
MG: So, if you continue with...
WF: With where I was.
MG: Yes.
WF: So Julian had a rather big presentation in Sweden through a big assignment, an interview in Aftonbladet. Uh, that was possibly what got him to decide to travel to Sweden, at that time. Then it turned out he had thoughts about Sweden anyway, in terms of freedom of expression and freedom of the press, in other words the legislation... Uh, in connection with his coming here I was asked if I wanted to be in on a meeting...
(One dictaphone stops working. The interrogation continues with only Olofsson's dictaphone.)
EO: It just died.
MG: We'll keep going with yours.
EO: So.
WF: With Julian and some journalists. And of course I said yes, I as many others was both curious and interested in what that was. Uh so we had a meeting, uh, with him, a number of journalists who had also been asked. What's happening now is that around WikiLeaks there's been a cooperation with journalists. Even newspapers and television corporations are involved. And in Sweden it was some sort of, embryo, it could have become the same thing. Uh, a number of journalists from different places of work but also SVT and Aftonbladet and media organisations too, also involved in these discussions. Uh, so of course it was very interesting.
Then Julian left the country again and came back one more time. And then we had another meeting, continued the discussion. If we're going to do this, we talked about, what should we do and how should we do it and what will we do. Uh, I remember it as, no decisions were made, no organisations were formed... In other words nothing formal but there were like discussions. Uh but I remember approximately that all the Swedish journalists thought the same thing, that we look at these materials which are worth gold for a journalist of course, that we want the papers on the table. Here there was like the opportunity to get, literally, the papers on the table. For a lot of things, not just the known ones. Uh, and that we'd do it as journalists, make an assessment of public interest. And from that perspective, uh, publish, possibly publish something then. That's to day, not do as WikiLeaks normally do, publish everything. But we as a more, yeah a Swedish normal publicity angle on it. And we were mostly in agreement on that.
Uh, and then nothing more happened, then Julian left the country again. Uh and so this happened Der Spiegel, New York Times, Guardian joint venture. Uh, another venture's been planned, I know, where I'm not at all involved but... Uh but approximately the same media are sitting and looking at materials. And we started talking about, uh, if we could have a similar project in Sweden with other materials. And where Aftonbladet, SVT, and a few, yeah other journalists were mentioned. It never happened, in other words any documents to look at, to dig into, researching has never manifested itself, uh, yet. But it's still in the air. After this storm has subsided so maybe it'll resume, maybe not. Uh, so on three occasions when Julian was in Sweden I've met him. And discussed these things, with a lot of others.
MG: The first time was in the spring?
WF: Yes, in the spring.
MG: Yeah, OK.
WF: And the second time was also before the summer.
MG: Yes. And this third time this is when he gives the lecture or?
WF: Precisely, in connection with the invitation from the brotherhood movement. Uh, and then in conjunction with this Anna Ardin who've I not met rings me then but I got a good contact with her rather quickly. Uh, because there was an enormous media interest and she wondered if she could have me take care of the media coordination, at any rate a lot of media so that... So when they rang her which is a part and inviting organisation so she bounced them most often onto me.
MG: OK.
WF: Uh so suddenly it became... And I said, I've got more media experience than she does. Know a lot of these journalists who are ringing. So I said yes, I can do that without having any clue what enormous time it'd take. And suddenly a lot of people believe I'm some sort of media coordinator for WikiLeaks but that's not the way it was.
MG: No.
WF: I only helped out, helped Anna and the brotherhood run this up until the conference. (Laughs.)
MG: Hmmm.
EO: Are you an active member of the brotherhood...
WF: No.
EO: Movement? No.
WF: No, no not at all.
MG: But you said Anna contacted you?
WF: Yes.
MG: Yes.
WF: Uh, I'd had contact with Peter Weiderud. I'd known him for years, or known, run into each other in international situations. Mostly I'm a foreign correspondent.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Peter Weiderud at the brotherhood, who's chairman of the brotherhood is also very involved internationally so we've met sometimes in the parliament or yeah like that. Uh, but when this gig was to take place so Anna was given the assignment of being press secretary and then, then she rang me and asked, can you, can I shift a bit of media work to you. (Laughs.) I told her she could do that. And then a rather big circus started around this interest before the seminar. Uh, and then a new circus started a week later when Anna and the other women went to you. And then, then my telephone number was already on record with the world media so it was almost a storm.
MG: OK.
WF: Uh...
MG: Yes. During, if we say like this, when it all starts, these allegations...
WF: Hmmm.
MG: What thoughts, if we say like this, what reaction did you get from Julian then? Was it him, you have contact with him as I understand it?
WF: Yeah, I have, there's a background story beforehand in other words... I had daily contact with Anna and Julian, in connection with the seminar. And Anna and I both had contact several times a day most often. Uh of course, because the media, that was a media turbo so we had a lot of contact.
And before this all starts Anna rings me and says like this, what I said before isn't true, we've actually had sex, Julian and me. Previously she said that they hadn't had it in other words spontaneously without anybody asking so she's joked about Julian living in her flat and sleeping in her bed but we haven't had sex. Of course he tried, she says but she's rebuffed him. Yeah no comments but we keep on joking.
But so the phone rings one day, I think it was Thursday then. Uh and I can hear in her voice that she, that it's something serious. So she says, it's not true what I said, we have too had sex. Aha, I say, I'm a little surprised she rings me and tells me this. Uh and then, and then she goes on to tell me that the other woman, Sofia has rung her and told her Julian was there and had sex with her. Both times it was consensual. And now I'm speaking as Anna, and this is the only version I have actually. Uh and we talked a lot, and I'm telling you all this to get back to your question...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, because there's a background story. And then she tells me that Julian and Sofia traveled to Enköping and had consensual sex or however you say that, uh, up until the morning and then Anna says and then Sofia tells me Julian continues having sex with her in the morning without protection, without a condom. And she doesn't want that and she protests, uh, but Julian continues and completes the sex without protection despite Sofia's protests, says Anna. Uh, OK I say, I'm speechless of course from suddenly getting this call. And so I have to say that he, we had sex at an early stage at my place too and right in the middle, in an ongoing act or whatever he broke the condom, she says. She doesn't say it, takes it off or she says... For I get stuck with, breaking it, it's such a strange... Either you have a condom or you don't, or so one takes, yeah...
So therefore I remember exactly this description and she says to me that suddenly he breaks it, the condom, and continues against my wishes. Uh, and I was again unbelievably stupefied and couldn't comment, I was just shocked a bit of course about this happening.
So that's the background story and I believe, I think Anna is very, very credible. Or at least I've thought so all along. Uh, so I don't dismiss it but contact Julian and confront him with this right away. Something like what the fuck is going on? Um, and his reaction is shock, he doesn't understand anything, of course he has a contrary story. He says Sofia didn't protest at all, they were just having fun. Uh he, he, I really try to pressure him, did you take the condom off, did you break the condom, Uh, he doesn't even understand the question. So it's two separate, and I have no conclusions to draw from this...
MG: No.
WF: At all. But that's the background story, and therefore I know, uh, what's coming so to speak. Because then Anna says Sofia's asked me to go to the police, follow along with her and I've decided I'm going to follow along and support her through this. But we're not going to file charges against Julian, we just want to go there and tell our stories. And so I wonder, can you tell a story without it becoming a complaint... Yeah, technicalities like that but I'm not good at them, but that's what she says.
And so she goes there and follows along with Sofia. And we ring a few times back and forth, we send SMS messages a bit about this. And I ring as well and contact Julian a few times. Uh, they want Julian to test himself for HIV, uh, otherwise they're going to file a complaint. That's how they express it. Uh, they don't want to speak with Julian themselves. But Julian's talking to Sofia he says and he thinks things are blown out of proportion. But I tell Julian that, the girls want you to test yourself and if you do it, they won't press charges but if you don't, they'll press charges. So I just conveyed that, I was the messenger. I didn't have any of my own, uh, and that's the way it is.
And then Anna rings again and says now we've been with the police and Sofia told her story and, yeah because I sat there so I added a comment of my own. This is very 'word for word' and as I remember her telling me. Uh, aha I say, and what was that comment. Yeah that comment was that I think Sofia is telling the truth because I experienced something similar Anna says then. And then she told me that bit about the condom then, so that's why I think it's true. And I don't know anything about police technicalities but then Anna says, because we suddenly were two women who had a statement about, about the same man so it became a crime against the state and so it became a complaint even though we didn't file a complaint. And, yeah so it became a complaint. And I therefore already knew Julian's reaction, and now we're up to your question.
MG: Yes yes.
WF: Uh, that he was in shock and didn't understand anything. That was his first, uh... And, so that then there were two versions, first there was no sex uh, then there was sex but nothing had happened that Anna didn't want to happen. Uh, and then the third version now is that it's rape even. So I have, from my point of view I have seen three versions of the same incident.
MG: If we say, you've then, Julian has been here earlier. Have you, have you any insight or knowledge of his activities with women?
WF: Uh, yeah insight, we've never spoken privately and we've never associated privately.
MG: No.
WF: So precisely what he's done and with who I don't know, but there is a common perception...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Of course and it's that he attracts a lot of women. In other words it's so remarkable. And it's a little bit, yeah it's a bit of a rock star phenomenon so to speak.
MG: OK.
WF: The world's most famous man...
MG: Yes.
WF: In the eyes of some people, in other words during a certain period he was that. Unbelievably intelligent, that's attractive and he challenges, in other words the Pentagon and so... That impresses a lot of people and I've seen very many women, I can say the overwhelming majority of women who've come into contact with him have fallen head over heels.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, they're totally enchanted. Uh, really. And I've been able to draw the conclusion that he's been able to take advantage of this, we can put it like that. But precisely with who, how many and what, that I don't know.
MG: No. He, you get, in other words his, his reaction if one says...
WF: Hmmm.
MG: What does he feel about this attention from the girls?
WF: I think he feels positively about it actually.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: One can, I understand the question but I think that he thinks it's positive and Anna's comments when she actually rings me and says, it wasn't true, what I said before, we've had sex.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And then she adds that, right on this theme as I say, uh, I was fucking proud, got the world's coolest guy in my bed and living in my flat.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, yeah and it's on that theme and that was why, to your question now so it's, so I believe Julian thinks this attention is positive, very positive.
MG: Hmmm. The events surrounding Julian living with Anna...
WF: Yes.
MG: Do you know about that?
WF: Yes. I was going to say, I'm the one who knows about that. Because that was when, for Julian's arrival that Anna rings me for the first time. And it's not a media matter but the fact that we've never spoken but, hi I'm Anna Ardin I have, so, I'm involved with, planning this seminar. I'll be on the election campaign trail so my flat will be empty, so Julian's welcome to live there she says, you can tell him that. Uh, and in addition the brotherhood would earn, or save hotel costs. And Julian would rather live in a flat than in a hotel so I forwarded the message and he jumped on it and so I brought the two of them together, easy as that.
So that, and then it was the plan Julian would stay until Friday I think. The seminar would be on Saturday, Anna'd come home on Saturday I think it was originally. But then she comes back on Friday instead. So, and it's a little bit like this, wow how is this going to work, where's Julian going to spend the night and like that. Uh, but what I understand then, it's that they go out and eat, then they go home, uh, and they decide that Julian can stay in her bed. So that was the easy part, that Anna clearly understands, my flat is empty, it can be used. And she offers it to Julian, then he lives there until, one more week.
MG: Yes. Do you have any contact with Julian this week then?
WF: Yes.
MG: After the seminar so to speak.
WF: Yes. Yes firstly so, after the seminar we go, then it's a Saturday. They met on a Friday and the seminar was on Saturday. So we go eat lunch, this is something I believe has been in the media. It's a little gang that lingers, when all the journalists have dropped out so there's only a few left. And there's also a woman standing there that I've seen during the seminar, whom I don't know and I don't know who she is. So polite as I am I say hello to her and ask, are you also a brotherhooder like that. No not at all she says, uh, I just asked if I could help out. Uh, and then I understand that it's one of those, you can call them groupies or stalkers or those who are attracted by his starshine.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But, yeah there's nothing more with that and she follows along and eats lunch with us.
MG: Who sees to it she follows along to eat lunch?
WF: Yeah, good question, but it's like this, brotherhood says like this, lunch is on us, thanks for the seminar and now we'll go and sit down and eat lunch and she's sitting there.
MG: So you don't even know if she's been invited?
WF: No in other words she says like this, I rang Anna and asked if I could help out. So there was some sort of acceptance from Anna that she was there, got to join the gang. What she helped out with, I don't know but there was an acceptance that she was with us.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh precisely, so she not only pushed her way in but she also... Then, I'm the one who finishes lunch and leaves first for I have somewhere else to go. But before that Peter Weiderud says, because it's been in the media, that it's crayfish season and Julian from outside the country is here, it's crayfish season, uh, so he should, he should get to try Swedish crayfish. And so Anna starts ringing, this is a Saturday, after the seminar, so Anna rings some friends and says yep of course we're going to organise a crayfish party for Julian. And so she rings and delegates assignments, can you buy this and can you buy that. That's about the last thing I hear before I leave the restaurant and thank them and go on.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And then it's, uh, a crayfish party in the evening, around 19:00 then.
MG: How were you invited, were you invited already at lunch...
WF: Yes precisely, it's then, then I was invited. And it's, it's not a big party, it's a smaller party, um... Amongst others it's two people from the Pirate Party who come that Anna's contacted. For the idea was Julian was to start living with them instead. Uh, so that's why they come so they can meet, be introduced. And then a few friends of Anna's too as well, uh, yeah.
MG: If we back up a bit to the lunch and that bit about Sofia who tags along.
WF: Hmmm.
MG: What did you think of Sofia's behaviour at the lunch restaurant?
WF: Uh I found her spec... As, yeah my best expression for this is 'special'. Uh, she said in essence nothing at all I don't think. Uh, she said that, precisely this bit that I rang Anna and asked if I could help out and then she said at one point that she worked at the natural history museum. That was what I heard her say, and... So I didn't bother thinking much about her but, if you ask then yes, as a special person.
MG: Did she speak with Julian at the lunch?
WF: Yeah they sat next to each other, uh, and they said something to each other and did something with each other but there I have no details.
MG: No.
WF: Uh, actually. Uh, the only thing one remembers, there's a person who fancies Julian.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And as stated, Julian finds that positive. That's the impression after that I don't delve into people's private lives like that... But, but, yeah apropos that there's another detail too, that I thought of. That was, we were talking, I talked with Anna all the time.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And she jokes about Julian, she says he's a special bloke. Suddenly he's just gone in the middle of the night and there he is sitting in the bathroom with his computer and... Uh, she's joking rather wildly in a fun way about that. And, and we, sometimes so, tell similar stories. But at the crayfish party uh, so she's sitting next to Julian and then she says, and so she brings it up, where did you go off to last night she says. Uh, in other words, and I have no recollection they had any relationship at all. I really believe that Anna, that's a strong woman, like that so that... Uh, but he catches on and he looks at her. Because I'm sitting right next to them. And, I woke up and you were gone from my bed and I felt like you'd dumped me she said. And precisely that word got me to jump. Uh, why did she feel dumped if she hadn't, yeah... Uh, and I noticed afterwards now that I, that word came back that, that she...
MG: But was that the night before the seminar in other words?
WF: No, it was after the seminar. Yeah yeah, right, the Friday night towards Saturday.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: That was when Julian was supposed to move but instead they went out and ate dinner, came back again, decided he'd stay on. And so they shared the bed. And then she told me with a laugh how he, weird guy who disappears and sits in the bathroom with his computer. But towards him there was another sentiment, that she felt dumped. And that's what I reacted to, because you don't do that if you don't have a relationship or like that what. And what I knew they had no relationship, so that, wow she feels dumped, yeah... Uh, that was during the crayfish party and so they sat and talked quietly about it for a while then, because it...
Right and then she joked about Julian also disappearing with a 'random girl' according to the media. Because the ones who rang her uh, they asked for Julian and so, no but he disappeared with a 'random girl' and I didn't understand what she was getting at. And she meant after the lunch, which we've just talked about, Julian and Sofia went off to amongst other things the museum and the cinema and like that. But he came back for the crayfish party.
MG: During the crayfish party, is there anything more that happens that you pick up on during the crayfish party?
WF: Well, the only possibly relevant... I can say I don't participate very much, I eat mostly, I love crayfish. (Laughs.) So I devote a lot of time to eating. But, uh, I know that they're talking about where Julian is going to sleep. Should he go back with this couple as planned. There's another one of Anna's friends, uh, and there's Anna. Uh, but I manage to understand it's already decided at the table Julian's going to stay with Anna again that night. Uh, without being a part of the discussion I understand that's how it's going to be, so that... Again so I'm one of the ones who left the earliest. And the others are still sitting there and...
MG: Si...
WF: And then he gets up, then he goes off and Anna leaves and sleeps there, what I heard anyway.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: I didn't see it. Maybe he did it in secret or how you want to put it, but it's nothing that I like saw him do.
MG: No.
WF: The classic, uh, yeah, man chases woman, in other words something like that...
MG: No.
WF: No I, I remember that later he, and he wanted to keep seeing Anna. Because he said, no but I think it's best if I stay here afterwards. It's easiest, he found a formal reason like that what. Instead of moving luggage and yeah... So. So that was my impression. But I wasn't paying a lot of attention to those people. I, I know that I sat and ate more than what the others did. (Laughs.). Yeah.
MG: And then if we put it like this, Sofia, have you had any contact with Sofia, have you met Sofia other than at the lunch?
WF: No. That time was the last, time I...
MG: And...
WF: I haven't spoken with her, I haven't seen her.
MG: Did you beforehand, have any contact with Sofia beforehand?
WF: No. That was at the seminar there. I saw someone at the seminar who looked right special. In other words I noticed and but... Everybody, everybody seemed to have a role there. There were journalists, there were technicians, and there were like organisers. And she was very obvious that she didn't have a role. So I sat and thought but... One thinks... What can that be, can it be a member of the Pirate Party, can it be, yeah you know like that. And suddenly she was just standing there next to Julian like this, and yeah. That's why I introduced myself and then I understood OK it's one of, in the group of admirers so to speak.
MG: Then we return to, to this, a bit, that this bit about her living, about Julian living with Anna.
WF: Yes.
MG: And then, was it decided how long he would stay with Anna?
WF: No not what I know but he was actually to have moved on Friday as I said, was what, was what had been decided. And then he stays on and then I never heard that there was another limit. I haven't heard it. If they've talked about this together... But I don't think so because, what you might want to arrive at is that gradually during that week, towards Wednesday and after that I think, so Anna says, I want him to move she tells me. Yeah but then tell him I tell her. And then she says it, yeah but I've told him she says but he doesn't want to move. And then I confronted him with that.
EO: Confronted Julian?
WF: Confronted Julian, the thing about moving, Anna says she wants you to move, she tells he she's asked you. And again he's surprised and says she hasn't said a word she says, he says.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And again I can... In other words I have...
MG: Yeah.
WF: I get two, it's like stereo speakers, the one channel says one thing and the other says another thing. But never has there been mention of a time limit but a certain day no now I want you to move.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: She tells me. And I convey this to Julian, that's the situation. And it's first on Friday I believe, that he moves.
MG: Hmmm. Where does he move to?
WF: Good question. I don't know. I think you should ask Johann, maybe you have. Uh, I have not been involved in the arrangements for his accommodations. Not at any point. Uh, actually, and I have not been visiting him uh, even, where he moved to for example then. But my recollection is that it wasn't in Stock... That the first stop was outside Stockholm somewhere. Uh, and now I know he's in Stockholm again but haven't been in the, uh, the place he lives now. Or...
MG: No. Do you know, did anyone, did you hear Anna comment on Sofia or that in other words, did she bring up Sofia before this thing with the HIV tests and stuff like that? Did she mention Sofia at all?
WF: No the only thing, the only thing I heard that was what I said right now that she called her a 'random girl'.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, with, with a shrug of her shoulders or she like tried to joke about Julian disappearing with...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: A 'random girl'. I didn't hear anything else.
MG: OK.
WF: Uh, you should maybe ask her girlfriends how she...
MG: Yes.
WF: Those closest to her. No so it was rather apparent at the time that she gave the impression for me, in other words Anna held a style and a line with me that was pleasant, credible, straight, fresh in some way. But then what happened, I understood later that a lot of things had happened. That the impression wasn't correct...
MG: No.
WF: Uh, corresponded with reality.
DL: No.
WF: So, hmmm.
MG: How, and then when this comes out... In other words when she rings and tells you this...
WF: Hmmm.
MG: About things having happened with Sofia.
WF: Yes.
MG: And that you, even then, she tells you what was true and like that.
WF: Yeah.
MG: What do you think about her when she tells you what she claims has happened?
WF: I find it, uh... I was, partly I was of course flabbergasted that it's a completely different impression all of a sudden.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, but then I think that, that I think she's credible. And a bit like this, a woman who is in trouble you want to believe, in some way like that OK, it's like...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, yeah so that was my feel, direct feeling.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And yeah, but at the same time when, have, I got this thought, how could they have sex, consensual as she described it, so then something happens which she says is an assault, how could she gleefully arrange crayfish parties, let him go on living there, share her bed with him, and so forth. So I felt that here, here is something here that doesn't add up. So I had both the feeling of her as a credible person but that something nevertheless didn't add up in her story.
MG: No.
WF: But I decided not to dig into it, I won't dig into it, you get to do that right? (Laughs.)
MG: Yeah! (Laughs.)
WF: So that it's those two impressions I have in parallel, a credible girl, a strong girl who knows what she wants but something doesn't add up. And it's magnified a bit because I now have three versions of what happened.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, and Julian still says the same thing, I don't understand anything.
MG: No.
WF: They liked this a lot and they really wanted me, yeah. Uh, so that yeah...
EO: Can I get a question in here?
MG: Of course.
EO: When you speak, when you spoke with Anna...
WF: Hmmm.
EO: And she says she's been the victim of a sexual assault. Do you, do you get the feeling of what you thought she was subjected to actually, or Sofia?
WF: Yeah, uh...
MG: Based on Anna's story.
WF: Yes, I understand. Based on Anna's story, when she rings me and says we had sex and this happened so she didn't at all imply she's been the victim of sexual assault. In other words she doesn't even want to go to the police. But, she expresses it like I want, I'll go along with, I promised Sofia I'd go along with her for support. Not that she had any business with the police herself. And so my impression is that she didn't experience anything serious but was mostly angry. As in don't fucking break the condoms but not that it was an assault. Uh, this is my impression because she doesn't go to the police for her own sake.
Then she rings back and says that, as stated what I said then that because she supported Sofia's story with that comment so the case turned out as she said, expressed it, stronger. She said precisely that.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: But it wasn't her case. Then if she went to you and presented her own case strongly, I don't know, but to me because that was the question.
EO: Yes, yes absolutely.
WF: So she trivialised it a lot as an unpleasant thing or something she got pissed about. Uh, and no plans to file a complaint or pursue it any further.
MG: But this is then before you, this is before it... I feel it's like...
WF: This is on Thursday, uh...
MG: And when she goes to the police, do you know?
WF: Yeah, Friday, uh, I think she goes to the police. And on Saturday I think, uh, the arrest, Julian's arrested in absentia on Saturday. So that, yeah Friday afternoon Anna rings me rather often or we ring each other, a real lot, a real lot of times that Friday. And now, she says, now Sofia's with the police. Now I've been with the police and now it's HIV tests again and... So on this Friday there's a lot of traffic, uh... But she gives me the impression she's going there to say this. Uh, and she's a supportive friend for Sofia. Precisely...
MG: What she...
WF: Yeah?
MG: Says, what do you know?
WF: Yeah, I know it rather precisely like that. Or believe her straight away.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: For when this gets out I know that I've spoken with, I get a call from Aftonbladet. And I decided I didn't want to speak to the media. I don't want to get pulled into this story. It's not my story so to speak.
MG: No.
WF: Uh, I haven't been in on these... And like that, so that... Uh but I know I tell Aftonbladet right away that I thought, what I told you, that Anna seems a credible girl. I remember I told Aftonbladet that.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But then there's still those, things that don't add up in the story.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But she, yeah...
MG: Have you ever talked with Julian about, yeah, women? Have you ever talked with him, in other words...
WF: Yeah, I understand the question, yeah.
MG: This about how they, how he gets swarmed all the time.
WF: Yeah, yeah.
MG: And have you had, yeah shall we say ethical conversations with him?
WF: Yes.
MG: You have?
WF: Yes, I have.
MG: Yes.
WF: Uh, because there's such an astonishing onslaught of women. In other words it takes seconds, in other words it's obvious... And when it's like that so uh, so I think one has to um, keep things under control. For different reasons, in other words partly there's an ethical, moral way then so to speak but, but uh, I can't actually get into that for I don't know what he's done and not done so to speak what.
MG: No.
WF: It's like take care of... It was like this, if it's going to be like this so one must, a, take care of it really, really well. Take care of it so no girls, yeah... But the other thing we spoke about and got caught up in with our discussions that is more the security angle. Uh, that he's given the impression of himself, which I think is partly accurate at any rate, of being a hunted man. He's not really all too popular in the US. According to reliable sources that I've read in many places so over one hundred people, who they are in the Pentagon who are trying to crack his codes, yeah... There's a hunt around, uh, and above all he's sitting on materials that can hurt, that they in the US think can hurt them.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, but not just the US. Iceland was the same and there are other countries.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, so, so they want, in other words it's an intelligence source that's unparalleled. That's why it's journalistically interesting in other words to see the papers on the table. So it's not difficult to draw the conclusion that there are a lot of people who want to stop. Then I don't think there's anyone who wants to attack him physically, but they can do other kinds of things.
And even if it's conspiratorial so there are a lot of of stories through history where they send out a girl in a short skirt. Uh, it wasn't so long ago in Russia, uh, you who are in that business know more about that than me. (Laughs.) Uh, editor in chief and journalists and it was only a few months ago, she filmed and taped it all. Uh, and we, we talked about that. And we also talked about uh, Vanunu the Israeli scientist who exposed nuclear weapons in Israel. That was the same thing, they sent a girl to his hotel room so it was a done deal. Then they could smuggle him back to Israel and so forth.
So we talked about there being two sides to it, partly take care of things neatly with the girls. But, but he starts sailing up as a person who can qualify, become the victim for different... Uh, yeah we talked about that, in those terms.
MG: Yeah and what does he say?
WF: Yeah, I only remember him saying that he understands.
MG: Yes.
WF: Uh, and yes that's the way it is but I also get the impression, don't remember the exact words, but my impression is still that he thinks he's in control. That he, because he understands it so he thinks about it and...
MG: Yeah.
WF: The girls he meets are the ones he's learned to trust or not trust, is something...
MG: But got... From your, yeah if one then, conspiratorial conversation you had with him.
WF: Hmmm.
MG: Do you feel, is there any reason to think in those terms in this case?
WF: I don't think so. Uh in other words no, if one now, one can think in different ways. That is if one should now think Pentagon and CIA and those types...
MG: Hmmm.
WF: No I don't think so, I don't think that at all, no such conflict.
MG: Has Julian suggested it's something like that?
WF: No he hasn't. He, he's mentioned that it's a smear campaign. But he, he doesn't know where it's coming from. Or he can only corroborate the entire world media.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Assange plus rape gets several million hits on the net. So it's a gigantic smear campaign he says but... No I, I don't think he thinks it's the CIA behind it.
MG: Yeah or...
WF: Or, this bit... No, not in this case. But, but he's also said that he has, because he has leaks he's also had, uh, what's it called, information from an intelligence service that he has to be careful for they have seen indications that there are such plans underway.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But not that this would be the plan, but in general. Uh, no so I can say that, here there's enough, yeah... Then there are always things you don't know about and like that but, but... If you only ask me like that, so no I don't think it's any big, I think it's more private, personal.
MG: Yes. You said that you'd confronted Julian as well in conjunction with, with your getting this from Anna.
WF: That's right.
MG: Did he say anything about what had happened? That is did he way that no, no but I don't understand anything...
WF: Yes.
MG: But...
WF: No.
MG: Did he elaborate by telling you what had happened?
WF: Yes a bit, that is it wasn't a lot but it was just to, I don't understand what you're talking about because, yeah we had sex precisely as usual.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: She, and I said as well like this that, Anna said that Sofia protested, clearly and loudly that, no don't go on.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And then he became, he became upset several times. I've brought that up several times. And then he gets like upset, he absolutely didn't do that he says emphatically, or she didn't do that. And so he says as well that it's a pure, pure, pure, pure lie.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And, and then he says only that, he had ordinary sex. And what leaked out to the media that we joked about what we'd name the baby and like that.
MG: Yeah.
WF: So that's well, more than that he didn't say but that we had sex and continued even though...
MG: Did he say whether he had a condom or not?
WF: On that occasion with Sofia, no condom.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, on the other occasion, (inaudible) why the condom broke. And then, then he said no, he hadn't broken it. That is he meant that we continued as usual.
MG: But did you...
EO: With or without a condom?
WF: As I understood it, with a condom. In other words it was protected sex on that occasion.
MG: Yes.
WF: Consensual protected sex and so he didn't at all break... That's his version, to me.
MG: How, what do you know about Julian privately, in other words do you have any way to know what his life is like purely... Is he married, does he have children?
WF: I know very little, I know some things that is but very, very little. Most of it comes from other newspaper articles.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: There are some people who've now tried to dig into his background. Uh, but I know very very, very little but I know that he, he has, he isn't married. And he has, I think at least four children I think. He doesn't talk much about his private life. Which is fine by me, I don't need to talk about things like that. That's not our role but... And to my knowledge he has no residence, that is he has no permanent address but circulates around.
MG: Hmmm. Have you, has he ever expressed a desire to have more children?
WF: Uh not with me, that is we're talking about... He's not a person who talks about his private life.
MG: No.
WF: He's very... Uh, and as I said that's fine by me, I don't need...
MG: Yup.
WF: Talk about it, so that no we haven't discussed that.
MG: No. Yes, Ewa?
EO: I see a few things here. Uh, yeah, had, had Julian anyone, did he talk about his future life like, did he want to establish himself here in Sweden or?
WF: Yeah right, hmmm.
EO: What were his thoughts?
WF: His idea as he expressed it to me or to others at any rate was to establish himself in Sweden. Apply for a work permit and a residence permit, which he's done.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: That is he's sent in the paperwork I know that. Uh and then go on to establish, uh, a publication in Sweden. Uh, and to do that get a publisher licence then, then be an official publisher. And thereby Sweden would be some sort of base for his life and activities. Uh, but no more details about how he'd live, I mean like that but this was a purely professional thought for the future. Work and residence permits, publisher licence, uh start a publication and Sweden would be some sort of main base for that activity. And that shows a direction forward in the future that is how he thinks. He yeah, his connections with Sweden would be strengthened and be more permanent and more... And that's a clear impression I have.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: And, yes it's in that direction, that is he reckons on working to achieve that.
EO: Hmmm. Yes, precisely. I thought, do you still have contact with Anna?
WF: No. We had a little, I'll look when the last, that is right in the turbo we had contact a while afterwards. And then it was more and more seldom. I rang a few times, she didn't answer. And that was after Claes Borgström got in the picture. And my conclusion I think, because we had a good relationship. In one of the last, her last SMS message so she writes that we trust each other, right, so... So my conclusion is that she's worried that I'm going to speak with the media or above all else Aftonbladet, because I have a lot of contact with Aftonbladet. And that therefore she reduces our communication so there are no leaks. I can imagine the solicitor says that, don't talk with any journalists even if they're friends. I'd namely say that. So that the last time she didn't answer, instead it's been some SMS messages and then... Yeah since a bit more than a week or more she hasn't even sent an SMS message.
EO: Hmmm. And your contact with Julian these days?
WF: I haven't seen him in ten days or something like that, or met him. But we've spoken, yeah maybe four, three, four days ago. Uh, but it's actually, I want to say regularly, but irregularly, regularly. It's now and again like that.
EO: And because he knows, yeah because you've followed along, do you talk about his case very much, this ongoing preliminary investigation, does he touch on this, does he ask you things? Do you have a dialog...
WF: Yes we do. But it's not so much dialog as it is more that he expresses his thoughts for example that nothing will happen before the elections. In other words an election tactic suddenly so to speak OK, that should it, if the case should go the one way or the other it'd hurt a party in the case that's on a parliamentary ballot, for example.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: Uh, I think he thinks about it a lot. And we don't talk very often, but the times we talk it comes up, this case comes up. He feels it clearly, yes he expresses (inaudible) discontent, he feels unjustly treated. For example a tangible thing that usually comes up, there was a murder case that was in the newspapers, Nancy in Malmö, a young girl who got chopped to death with a bottle I think. The individual is brought in, sentenced to eight years prison. The photo of the murderer is mosaic but the photo of Julian who is only a suspect is not mosaic. Uh, so that he feels there's something going on that's not right in general, and he comments on this often. But we've sat like this and like long, it's mostly phone conversations that are... Yeah, and so forth in that way so to speak.
MG: Who in Sweden does he have the best contact with, Julian? Who would you say is the one he here in Sweden trusts the most?
WF: Yeah it's a bit here and there but if I were to name one person I'd probably say Johannes Wahlström. I think they made good contact in the US when Johannes interviewed Julian.
MG: Do you have any contact, how has your contact with Johannes looked from...
WF: The beginning of time?
MG: Yeah or more correctly, no but if we say after the bomb was dropped.
WF: Yeah in principle Johannes has been out of the country all this time. Now I don't know if we've spoken by phone once or twice and a few SMS messages. That is it's been very little, low frequency contact.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: That is this is nothing we've ripped up and people have been running to meetings, sat and planned. But this is something that goes on as it goes on. And the last SMS message from Johannes was well, yeah yesterday. And I didn't reply, I didn't have the energy... He can come to my place and have a look himself. (Laughs.) So it's on that level so to speak.
MG: Yeah.
WF: There are no, like, plans, there are no fractions like that but...
MG: And before this? So did you know him a long time before this or?
WF: No. I've met him, um, once in Jerusalem on a common, a lot of journalists gathered. So that's why I knew who he was. Then he interviewed me once about the middle east for some magazine. Uh and that was the first time I met him and spoke with him. The third time I met him, the first time with Julian in principle, Assange.
MG: And where was this?
WF: I think, uh... Let me think, I might be missing something here. Yes, I met him, I wrote, also. So if you write about the middle east you'll often get flak.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: A lot more. So suddenly I can say that, yeah I know him.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: But that's only recently that, that we've come that far.
JA: Yes.
EO: Hmmm. I have no further questions.
MG: Anything you think we should have asked that you want to get across?
WF: I think I've covered everything. No but there's this, it feels like, uh, there are so many versions of the same events.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: I think about that.
MG: Hmmm.
WF: And some people, Anna who's sitting and feeling dumped next to Julian. That too sticks in my... Why felt that.
EO: One thing, when this phone call comes, on Thursday, when Anna...
WF: Yes.
EO: And then you confronted Julian.
WF: Yes.
EO: Did it come out that he'd had sex with both Sofia and Anna or were you completely focused on Sofia?
WF: No in other words, when Anna rings, that is I think that's Thursday then.
EO: Hmmm.
WF: Up to then she's joked about, he hasn't got me between the sheets, and like that OK.
EO: Hmmm, hmmm.
WF: Uh, but Thursday then, that's when she says that, I've also had sex with Julian...
EO: Hmmm...
WF: What I told you before isn't true, so that's when it comes out that they've had sex.
EO: Hmmm...
WF: And then the reason she says that, it's because Sofia rings her and tells her about their night...
EO: Hmmm.
WF: So that within a few minutes I understand, everyone understands I almost said, so it came out that they'd both had sex with Julian. But to add: consensual sex.
EO: But then, you confront Julian with this.
WF: Yes.
EO: Is it also, do you also talk about both...
WF: Yes.
EO: Girls?
WF: I told you explicitly what, precisely what Anna told me, I say that straight out.
EO: Yes.
WF: This broken condom and, why did you continue when Sofia said no, protested.
EO: Hmmm.
MG: Yeah then we come in inadvertently in this that, do you know if Julian has had any contact with the girls?
WF: No...
MG: After...
WF: Not after the complaint but that Friday, uh, when the girls actually go to the police (inaudible) I think it was a Friday. Before that Anna rings me frequently. Uh, and above all that we want him to test himself so then we won't file a complaint she says. OK I say, I'll ring Julian and tell him that. And so I do. And so I ring Anna and Anna rings me.
And then I ring Julian again and then he says, no but now I've had a long conversation with Sofia. He says on Friday. And she, (inaudible) no worries, that's to say she's not going to the police and that was, they were fully in agreement and... I say, is it really true I say because Anna, when I spoke with Anna right now I got a completely different impression, they're on their way to the police (inaudible). No he says, she, we were in complete agreement, it was very friendly, very nice.
And what he comes back to several times, and it's that I've spoken with her on Friday and she said like this. But after that I don't know if they've had any contact. But I don't think they've had any contact.
MG: Good.
EO: Hmmm. No...
MG: Then we'll end the interrogation at 12:17.
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